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Øyvind Gaarder Andersen er lektor ved Høyskolen for ledelse og teologi på Stabekk, som nettopp er opprettet av baptistene og pinsebevegelsen. Han underviser også ved Hedmarktoppen og Sandvik Folkehøyskole. Andersen er født i Bergen og vokste opp der. Pinsekirken Tabernaklet var hans åndelige hjem. I 1979 ble han cand.theol. ved Menighetsfakultetet. De senere år har han reist en god del som forkynner til ulike land, spesielt til Russland og Afrika. Andersen har skrevet flere bøker. Den siste, som kom ut i juni er "Våg å tenke - våg å tro!", en bok om trosforsvar. Dessuten er Andersen daglig leder i stiftelsen Global Misjon.

torsdag, oktober 12, 2006

Norsk Teologisk Forum - Israel og "muren"

Norsk Teologisk Forum har kommet med en uttalelse om Israel og Palestina. Blant annet tas landløftene til Israel i Det gamle testamentet opp. Man kan være både enig og uenig med ulike punkter i denne uttalelsen.
Landløftene til Israel gjelder fortsatt i dag. De skal ikke bare åndeliggjøres. Men når og hvordan de skal oppfylles, er et annet spørsmål. Jeg tror at de ikke kan realiseres fullt ut før Jesus kommer igjen, og de endetidsbegivenheter som er knyttet til det, inntreffer.

"Muren"
Det som har vakt mest oppsikt ved Norsk Teologisk Forums uttalelse, er at den kritiserer Israel for byggingen av sikkerhetsgjerdet, eller "muren", mot palestinske områder.
Svært mange norske kirkesamfunn er med i Norsk Teologisk Forum, og står slik sett, formelt, bak uttalelsen.

Ikke Pinsebevegelsen imidlertid. Det er nok ingen tvil om at det Norsk Teologisk Forum sier på dette punkt står i skarp kontrast til det som er det rådende syn blant pinsevenner.
Gunnar Jeppestøl, leder i Pinsebevegelsens lederråd, uttrykker i Dagen den 12.10 forståelse for Israels bygging av dette sikkerhetsgjerdet. Han sier: "Jeg vil være veldig forsiktig med å kritisere Israel for å beskytte sine innbyggere, og det er lett å sitte i Norge og fremføre sine synspunkter. Men hadde folk blitt drept på Karl Johan på grunn av terror, tror jeg nok at norske myndigheter hadde reagert."

Det er kritikkverdig av Norsk Teologisk Forum å komme med en politisk uttalelse om et spørsmål som dette. Selvsagt må det være lov å kritisere Israel, som de sier. Men på dette punkt røpes det mangel på forståelse for Israels situasjon. Det henvises til FN. For det første er imidlertid ikke FN ufeilbarlig. Det består av summen av de land som er med der - og disse er, som kjent, langt fra fullkomne. For det annet taler de FN resolusjoner som Norsk Teologisk Forum henviser til, om at Israel skal få leve bak sikre og anerkjente grenser. Hvor de grensene skal gå, er et forhandlingsspørsmål.

Jo Benkows kronikk i Aftenposten
Tidligere stortingspresident Jo Benkow har den 13.10 skrevet en meget lesverdig kronikk i Aftenposten om spørsmålet. Han går inn på staten Israels opprettelse, bakgrunnen og utviklingen frem til i dag. Benkow skriver blant annet: Det går rett og slett ikke an å bedømme Israel med vår egen beskyttede freds standard. Vi kan jo fullstendig risikofritt slå ring om menneskerettighetene og vår egen fortreffelighet.

Om "muren" skriver han: "Den utskjelte muren som israelerne har bygget, er også et kostbart tiltak. Mange mener muren er folkerettsstridig. Men israelerne har ikke bygget muren for å gjøre livet vanskeligere for palestinerne, men fordi de mener muren bidrar til økt trygghet for egne innbyggere. Israel er ikke blitt en mektig militærmakt for å drive erobringskrig. Da de oppnådde en endelig fredsavtale med Jordan, ble man på fredelig vis enige om grensespørsmålet. Da Israel inngikk en fredsavtale med sin tidligere erkefiende Egypt, etter president Sadats historiske reise til Israel, ga de uten videre tilbake de landområder de tidligere hadde erobret, inkludert oljekilder Israel totalt mangler. Statsminister Barak tilbød å gi tilbake hele 97 % av det landområde som Israel hadde okkupert i bytte mot en fred. Det ble avslått av palestinerne."
Les kronikken på Aftenpostens nettside.

Pinsebevegelsen og Norsk Teologisk Forum
Torsten Menzoni, pastor i Pinsekirken Tabernaklet, Bergen, og styremedlem i nye Norges Kristne Råd (nNKR) skriver i en kommentar til denne artikkelen: "Som styremedlem i nNKR kan jeg si at hverkan arbeidsplan, tematikk eller skriftlige uttalelser har vært behandlet i nNKR. Teksten står ikke på vegne av nNKR og heller ikke i enighet med nNKR. Poenget er jo at de fleste medlemmene i nNKR også er med i NTS, men ikke pinsebevgelsen." Norsk Teologisk Samtaleforum (NTS) er ikke beskrevet i vedtekter eller statuttene til nNKR, sier han.
Se "Comments".

107 Comments:

Blogger Anders Lundblad said...

"Det henvises til FN. For det første er imidlertid ikke FN ufeilbarlig."

Ja, jeg er jeg meget forundret over den vekt mange kristne legger ved FNs synspunkter. FN har ingen moralsk vetorett. FN gjør gode vedtak og dårlige vedtak, men som andre organisasjoner - med flertallsbeslutninger som endelig instans - har FN egentlig ingen autoritet til å uttale seg om rett og galt.

Det finnes nesten ingen politikere i Norge som tør å si at FN tar feil. Hele utenrikspolitikken har lagt opp til - og setter en ære i - å være best i FN-klassen. Vi støtter FN i alt slags vær. Og grunnen til dette er at i brist på overordnede normer er FN det nærmeste en gud det sekulære mennesket kan komme. I det samfunn der demokratiet er overordnet vil FN, som den samlede menneskehetens representant, være Høyeste Rett. Som enkeltmenneske kan vi ikke påstå at FN tar feil, for da innrømmer vi samtidig at flertallet ikke avgjør hva som er rett. For å overprøve FN må vi henvise til noe annet enn det menneskelige flertall og da rakner egentlig hele vårt verdensbilde.

12:24 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonym said...

Det som er problemet med muret er ikkje AT han blir bygd, men KVAR han blir bygd - i stor grad på palestinsk side av 1948-grensa. Alle har rett til å verne seg sjølve, men ingen har rett til å byggje garde på annanmanns land. Den norske lova om grannegjerde seier det på ein heilt enkel og lettfatteleg måte, til og med for norske kristenfundamentalistar: "§ 6. Granne har rett til å ha gjerde mot granneeigedom når han kostar det sjølv." Det står "gjerde mot granneeigedom", ikkje "gjerde på granneeigedom". Så enkelt er det!

9:16 a.m.  
Anonymous Harald Gundersen, Oslo said...

Ja ja, slike komentarer fra deg plasserer vel egentlig deg og pinsebevegelsen så langt ute på siden av debatten at dere havner i boksen 'uinteressant'.

9:27 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonym said...

Du presiserer at pinsebevegelsen ikke er medlem i NTF. Det er jeg glad for.

Jeg vil gjerne henge på en advarsel til pinsebevegelsen mot å bli med i fremtiden.

Men det er grunn til bekymring. Pinsebevegelsen knyttes stadig tettere opp mot disse mijøene, og medlemsskapet i Norges Kristne Råd illustrerer dette.

Jeg vet, og er glad for, at folk flest i pinsebevegelsen ikke vil dele synet til denne venstresidige foreningen, men hva mener egentlig fiffen i pinsebevegelsen?

Jeg gleder meg, nærmest euforisk, over Gunnar Jeppestøls uttalelse i denne saken. Den representerer pinsebevegelsens overveldende sominerende syn på en riktig måte.

Likevel tror jeg Israelsengasjementet er bortimot lik null i "toneangivende" miljøer i pinsebevegelsen. Med det mener jeg, (håper ikke du sletter kommentaren min, fordi om jeg navngir litt her) Filadelfia Oslo, ved pastor, Betel Trondheim, ved pastor, Betel Hommersåk, ved pastor, Filadelfia Tromsø, ved pastor, Tabernaklet Skien, ved pastor (ny og gammel), Pinsekirken i Ålesund, ved pastor, PBU, PYM osv...

Jeg regner med de alle leser denne bloggen din. Derfor vil jeg utfordre dem til å motbevise mine uttalelser. Dersom de er glade i Israel, og vil hjelpe og forsvare Israel i de vanskelige slagene de står overfor, er tiden for å gjøre det kjent NÅ.

Tidsånden vil stå dem imot i denne saken. Derfor vil det vise kristent lederskap å tale sannhet om Israel i denne tiden.

Virkeligheten er, at Israelsengasjementet er sterkt på grasrotplan i Pinsebevegelsen. Men pinsevennene har fått et dårligere lederskap enn de fortjener.

Generasjonen pinseledere under 60 år tør ikke ta i samfunnets fundamentale moralske utfordringer med ildtang. Med mener jeg forsvaret av Israel mot islamistiske holocaust-planer, og massemordet som foregår i mors liv, mot disse mine minste.

Jeg gråter over denne svakheten. Menigheten skal være lys og salt, men er knapt det ene. Jeg frykter at når jeg nevner lys og salt er begrepet blitt så innholdsløst at det ikke lenger gjør inntrykk på folk. Men det er en ordre fra Gud om at vi skal gi mennesker evangeliet, og tale om Guds vilje for land og folk. Disse to tingene går hånd i hånd. Det blir ikke vekkelse før begge deler er på plass.

Sånn. Nå fikk jeg sagt det!!!

9:27 a.m.  
Anonymous Anonym said...

Til deg som sier at plasseringen av "muren" er problemet, vil jeg si følgende. Israel bygger sitt sikkerhetsgjerde/mur, der det er nødvendig for å forsvare sitt folk. Jussen sier at de er på "palestinsk" land, men moral tilsier at de må ha rett til å forsvare seg mot terrorister som kommer fra, og skyter fra disse områdene. Det vil, i noen tilfeller, føre til at man bygger inne på "palestinsk" land.

Den eneste begrunnelsen for dette er sikkerhet. De personene som påstår at Israel bygger for å annektere "palestinernes" land, eller plage "palestinsk" befolkning er kilder til eller ofre for antisemittismen, som alltid mener at jøders motiver må mistenkeliggjøres. Slik har det vært i flere tusen år.

9:33 a.m.  
Blogger Pastor Torp said...

Takk for et betimelig og klargjørende innlegg, Øyvind! Du utviser mot. Jeg er også glad for Gunnar Jeppesøls vilje til å distansere seg fra Norsk teologisk samtaleforums uttalelse.
På Norges Kristne Råds nettside (http://www.norgeskristnerad.org/index.cfm?id=101737) står følgende: "Norsk teologisk samtaleforum - Dette er et utvalg i Nye Norges Kristne Råd som samtaler om relevante og aktuelle temaer innen teologi og sosialetiske utfordringer." På Pinsebevegelsens Predikantkonferanse i vinter tok jeg opp det betenkelige i at det Israelkritiske NTSF er en integrert del av NKR, og jeg spurte Gunnar Jeppestøl, Torsten Mentzoni og Dag Nygård offentlig om hva de mente om at Pinsebevegelsen ville kunne bli "gissel" av et slikt forum. Jeg fikk vel egentlig ikke noe svar den gangen, men utviklingen etterpå gir Pinsebevegelsen en stor utfordring i å faktisk være et korrektiv til den blinde Israelkritikken i NTSF og NKR.

12:20 p.m.  
Anonymous Eva O. Sundar said...

Hvem står bak uttalelsen?
Du skiver at det er Norsk Teologisk Forum som står bak, men i følge Aftenposten (11. okt.)er det Nye Norges Kristne Råd, NNKR, som står bak dette. Teo.Forum har utformet teksten på grunnlag av, og på vegne av, enighet i NNKR. Pinsebevegelsen er med i denne sammensluttningen og er så langt jeg forstår også medansvarlig for at dette har skjedd. Har jeg misforstått linjene? Eva O. Sundar

1:19 p.m.  
Blogger Torsten Mentzoni said...

Om nye Norges Kristne Råd og Norsk Teologisk Samtaleforum.

Uttalelsen som kom denne uken er som du sier Øyvind laget av NTS hvor pinsevennene ikke er med.

Eva sier "Teo.Forum har utformet teksten på grunnlag av, og på vegne av, enighet i NNKR." Dette er feil. Som styremedlem i nNKR kan jeg si at hverkan arbeidsplan, tematikk eller skriftlige uttalelser har vært behandlet i nNKR. Teksten står ikke på vegne av nNKR og heller ikke i enighet med nNKR. Poenget er jo at de fleste medlemmene i nNKR også er med i NTS, men ikke pinsebevgelsen.

Historisk sett har nok pinsevennene vært representert i forløperen til NTS ved forstander Hans Friberg(kilde Sveinung Lorentzen), men ikke i NTS.

Siden NTS ikke er beskrevet i vedtekter eller statuttene til nNKR mener jeg det må være feil det som står på nettsidene, Jan Åge "Dette er et utvalg i Nye Norges Kristne Råd som samtaler om relevante og aktuelle temaer innen teologi og sosialetiske utfordringer."

Problemstillingen om det organisatoriske forholdet mellom nNKR og NTS vil jeg ta opp på møte i arbeidsutvalget for styret i nNKR tirsdag 17. oktober.

Det er ikke bra hvis det kan fremstå slik at Pinsebevegelsen står bak en uttalelse vi ikke har vært med å utforme. Da blir vi et gissel, noe som er svært uønsket.

Det som har skjedd i nNKR til nå angående det jødiske folk, er at i styremøtet 19. september besøkte vi synagogen i Oslo og kunne gi en enstemmig støtteerklæring etter at synagogen ble beskutt. Her mener jeg at vår støtte fikk økt vekt gjennom vår deltagelse i nNKR. Dette hører med i bildet når vi diskuterer Pinsebevegelsen, nNKR og Israelsspørsmål.

6:12 p.m.  
Blogger Øyvind Gaarder Andersen said...

Takk, Torsten, for en fyldig og god redegjørelse!

7:39 p.m.  
Anonymous Eva O. Sundar said...

Uklare linjer
Jeg formulerte min kommentar som et spørsmål på bakgrunn av artikkelen, "Muren hindrer dialog" (Aftenposten 11. okt.)I denne art. legges det vekt på at det er det nye samarbeidet mellom kirkesamfunnene som har gjort enighet i Israel-Palestina spørsmålet mulig. Alle kirkesamfunn i NNKR, inklusiv Pinsebevegelsen, var med i dette oppslaget i Aftenposten. Jeg vil anbefale at man kommer med en reaksjon ovenfor NNKR og tydeliggjør at denne saken skulle vært frontet som en sak fra NTF og ikke NNKR. Her følger et lite utdrag fra teksten i Aftenposten:

"Historisk samarbeid.

Det er Norsk teologisk samtaleforum som har utarbeidet teksten. Forumet er tilknyttet Nye Norges Kristne Råd, som er en nydannet sammenslutning av de fleste kristne kirkene. Etableringen av dette brede økumeniske samarbeidet er historisk. På et seminar i Oslo i går understreket representanter fra flere kirkesamfunn også det unike i at det har vært mulig å komme frem til en felles tekst om Israel og Palestina."

6:17 p.m.  
Blogger Øyvind Gaarder Andersen said...

Hei Eva!

Du har kanskje lest Korsets Seier for siste uke, s. 5? Der tas saken opp.

Der står det bl.a.: "Når vi (KS?) kontakter artikkelforfatteren Dag Kullerud i Aftenposten beklager han at artikkelen kan misforstås...Slik siden har blitt utformet ser jeg at det her er lett å misforstå."

9:29 p.m.  
Anonymous Eva O. Sundar said...

Hei Øyvind!
Nei, jeg har ikke lest siste KS, men takk for iformasjonen.
Eva

10:04 p.m.  
Anonymous Mr. Musæus said...

Hei bror

Jeg håper du følger opp denne debatten på din blogg. Interessant å følge utviklingen i kristenheten når det gjelder fiendlighet mot Israel. Vi tror at antisemittismen som bygget seg opp før 2. verdenskrig slo rot blant ondskapsfulle mennesker, men det var jo alle typer mennesker, også pinsevenner. Jeg har lest intervju med Emanuel Minos, ser han forteller hvor kristiske pinsevennene var til jøder helt frem til krigens dager, og langt inn i krigen....

På samme måten sniker jødehatet seg inn i dag. Disse "Riv Muren"-folkene er jo gode folk, som vil godt, men de er ofre for en åndsmakt som har vist seg sterk gjennom historien, antisemittismen...

3:54 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonym said...

Nå finnes det forsåvidt ikke noe som heter Norsk Teologisk Forum.

Ihvertfall er ikke det navnet på samtaleforumet du omtaler.

9:33 p.m.  
Blogger Mea Maxima Culpa said...

Jeg er i utgangspunktet enig angående FN, og da fra et synspunkt som heller mot venstre, snarere enn ditt som sannsynligvis heller mot høyre.

MEN, fundamentet FN bygger på er jo nettopp noe av det nærmeste vi kan komme en formell definisjon av hva man i filosofien kaller "naturloven", (de som tror på den vel, å merke) hva vi kristne kaller "loven som er skrevet i våre hjerter".

Det fornuftsfrø som er plantet (av Gud i mine øyne) i ethvert menneske.


Slik sett blir fort kristendom, menneskerettighetene og FN synonymer.

9:37 p.m.  
Blogger Mea Maxima Culpa said...

Motargumentet mot at problemet er HVOR muren er, og ikke at den ikke eksisterer stemmer jo rett og slett ikke.

Israel hadde helt fint kunnet plassere muren helt uproblematisk istedenfor midt over jorder som er er menneskers levebrød o.l. ved å ha muren inne på egne områder. (da definert som det som i praksis fungerer som områder, jeg mener ikke med dette å begi meg ut på en grensediskusjon.)

Ikke bare jeg mener dette, men Israelsk høyesterett har også delvis bekreftet dette, og beordret flytting av muren enkelte steder. (noe jeg regner med at har skjedd nå.)

9:44 p.m.  
Anonymous Anonym said...

Denne kommentaren har blitt fjernet av en bloggadministrator.

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